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Topic: Please vote HARRY BRAUN for President
Replies: 55   Pages: 4   Last Post: Jan 24, 2006 7:58 PM by: Ray Rolfe

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Sam Spiczka

Posts: 1,671
From: Sartell, MN
Registered: Jul 20, 2001
Re: Please vote HARRY BRAUN for President
Posted: Sep 23, 2004 1:52 PM
  Reply

> John McCain, Colin Powell, or Gen. Wesley
> Clark are a few who come to mind.

As a side note, I actually gave money to both McCain and to Clark. To McCain early in the 2000 primary to try and head off Bush. I lived in Austin, TX at the time and was already experienced with him. I wouldn't have minded McCain as President either. (That was back when he had some credibilitiy for me.) And to Clark just when he officially got in the race because I knew a lot of money fast would help make him a contender. Makes me think I should never donate to people I like ever again...

Bob Schulz

Posts: 416
From: Brooklyn Park, MN
Registered: Aug 15, 2003
Re: Please vote HARRY BRAUN for President
Posted: Sep 26, 2004 11:59 PM
  Reply

No one has to read this,

Sam Spiczka

Posts: 1,671
From: Sartell, MN
Registered: Jul 20, 2001
Re: Please vote HARRY BRAUN for President
Posted: Sep 27, 2004 9:16 AM
  Reply

Ray already made a wonderful post to answer that particular question, Bob. Seems you just didn't like the answer. But keep dancing, it's rather amusing.

The True Believer by Hoffer. If it helps any, he's considered by some to be quite a conservative philosopher.

jaime longoria

Posts: 1,161
Registered: Oct 7, 2002
Re: Please vote HARRY BRAUN for President
Posted: Sep 28, 2004 10:16 AM
  Reply

Say Bob, do you read what you write?

ending with the sparing of
> millions of lives by the sudden bombing of two
> cities,(all of which could be endlessly discussed on
> their own merits from several viewpoints, and have
> been over the last 5 decades in books I won't bother
> to mention.) and finally, a complete refusal to
> address the original query:
>
> "Why do journalists insist on substituting euphemisms
> for correct language in the description of butchery
> by butcherers?"
>

Why do you? My reference to Nagasake was not rhetorical. Go read the site. My point is that a "descendent" and heir of one of the greatest atrocities in human history actually lives in my home. She does not fill her heart with hatred toward "US". She and her city are passionate advocates of peace. There are no words that you come up with that can disguise the "terrorist" action of "our" government in dropping the bomb on Nagaske. Do read all of your pro-American rationalization; but you will have to admit as do all learned men that Truman did drop the bomb to "intimidate" the Russian Leader bent on communist conquest of the European states. It was not an action of tactical war it was "political" terrorism on a global scale. Plain and simple. We, our government killed hundreds of thousands of real people to send a "message" to a politcal enemy.

My friend, off the cuff liberals piss me off because they are interested in winning their point more than understanding the "question" at hand: human savagery. That is what I admire of your "art" work. It is there that I find you most eloquent.

We are the world's cultural leader; are we also it's "moral" leader? This question you should explore.

My house guess asks the question; why are we as a nation so violent? Why do we want to start another world war? She starles me with such clarity? Why does Bush want another World War? Why does he want to "impose" our government on other peoples? Isn't that what Adolf and Hirohito sought to do; liberate freedom loving people like thier own populations?(propoganda is propoganda no matter whose side it represents)

That's the real question you and "right" need to answer. The Japanese people lost almost a quarter million old men, women and children in one week to an attack that was 'symbolic'. It was not an act of soldiers against soldiers. It was cruel to drop a bomb like that over a "city". Yet they as people have overcome that horrifing assult to becomes our strong economic and idealogical allies; but our propensity to call for blood when we are cut astounds them. Think about the reality of real people dying. Think of the reality of what they suffered. They still have people living that talk about what saw. Imagine the actions of Our government; the only government of, and by the people, and ask yourself what sort of people are we that we so quickly forget what blood is on our hands. I am not a "lily livered liberal", in a war against you want to behind my gun. I will kill in defence of my country. But I will not support "chest beating" acts of military violence against people to assert our supression of other countries desire to acheive self determination as a people and as a country.

An eye for eye, and tooth for tooth, in our age is the surest way to global death. We thought that lesson to history's tyrants; but did we forget to teach ourselves.

coyote
chicano artist
de corazon

Bob Schulz

Posts: 416
From: Brooklyn Park, MN
Registered: Aug 15, 2003
Re: Please vote HARRY BRAUN for President
Posted: Sep 30, 2004 1:16 AM
  Reply

If youngsters knew

jaime longoria

Posts: 1,161
Registered: Oct 7, 2002
Re: Please vote HARRY BRAUN for President
Posted: Sep 30, 2004 12:33 PM
  Reply

> Jimmy, of course I read what I write. To imply that
> I do not is a cheap shot. Just as the "third grade"
> cheap shot, or the "keep dancing" cheap shot, or the
> "dictionary definitions" cheap shot, etc.
>
> The history leading up to the use of the atomic bombs
> does not excuse their use, it explains the bad
> options of war and the decisions made, at that time.
> First one thing happens, then another, then another,
> then, hopefully, sooner than later, it is concluded.
> When any war is dragged out, the results are worse.


I love you Bob; I admire and applaud your work. Now lets get together at the Weisman next week and talk about real racist and reverse racist stuff with big Chicano paintings as our back drop--- and we can be loud and offensive in our comments in the museum> because you will be in the company of one of the few Chicano artists of minnesota!!

ps do come to hear Cheech talk about Chicano Art-- straight from the "Patron"!!!!

your friend in the "third grade"

jaime longoria
chicano artist
minnesota

Bob Schulz

Posts: 416
From: Brooklyn Park, MN
Registered: Aug 15, 2003
Re: Please vote HARRY BRAUN for President
Posted: Oct 3, 2004 10:52 PM
  Reply

Well, Jimmy, not much can come from yelling over such historic phenomena.

While showing that the bomb would indeed work, with then unknown consequences, with the certain knowledge of what had just occurred in and around Okinawa, with the mounting casualties and death on all sides, with projections into the millions, with the uncertainties surrounding the construction of shocking new weapon systems within the arsenals of Japan and Germany, including the real possibility of nuclear, rocketry and jet air power, all of this, being considered together with the emerging possibility of Stalinist Communism dominating eastern Europe, certainly figured into showing what we had, and what it was capable of doing.

With even imperfect hindsight being 20/20 historians today can argue what instead might have been done. But, you should remember that these leaders were just humans acting within their parameters of experience and contemporaneous knowledge of the events that swirled around the history then being made. Yes, we can look back now, after the revelations of the Venona files, the revelations of Whitaker Chambers, the Japanese nuclear program files recently uncovered, the collected papers of the leaders of that time, and make guesses as to alternatives, if that was known to those leaders in 1945. But it was not. And we cannot apply moral lessons of today, with this new knowledge, to that time and those actions. I wish that we could. But we can't.

If so, we could alter history! We could eliminate the guillotine! We could instruct Rousseau as to his false assumptions concerning noble savages and the nature into which humans are born, we could counsel Roosevelt as to the activities of Harry Dexter White, and Alger Hiss, we could counsel Marx as to his false assumptions concerning economies being the foundations of human action, we could warn the West that Cronkite's, "We are mired in stalemate" broadcast in 1968 was false as it referenced the Tet Offensive, and the Vietnam War may well have ended within the next year, and so on.....

The never ending pillorying of America is the remnant of the Chomskyist movement. The socio-political cultural damage is incalculable. He's been at it since the 50's. There's a great essay in the "Commentary" Oct. '04, issue about this phenomenon titled, "Chomsky's Universe". I do not make this up, I merely relay what others have discovered, I'm the messenger. What concerns me is that there is no one else. In the circle of art, it's kick Bush, and anything connected, that's about it. Oh, and kick the West. Oh, and have a good laugh. Go figure.

And thanx for posting concerning these items as I find it difficult to post concerning art. I think about art but find it superficial at this time.

jaime longoria

Posts: 1,161
Registered: Oct 7, 2002
Re: Please vote HARRY BRAUN for President
Posted: Oct 4, 2004 12:06 PM
  Reply

> Well, Jimmy, not much can come from yelling over such
> historic phenomena.
>
> While showing that the bomb would indeed work, with
> then unknown consequences, with the certain knowledge
> of what had just occurred in and around Okinawa, with
> the mounting casualties and death on all sides, with
> projections into the millions, with the uncertainties
> surrounding the construction of shocking new weapon
> systems within the arsenals of Japan and Germany,
> including the real possibility of nuclear, rocketry
> and jet air power, all of this, being considered
> together with the emerging possibility of Stalinist
> Communism dominating eastern Europe, certainly
> figured into showing what we had, and what it was
> capable of doing.
>
> With even imperfect hindsight being 20/20 historians
> today can argue what instead might have been done.
> But, you should remember that these leaders were
> just humans acting within their parameters of
> experience and contemporaneous knowledge of the
> events that swirled around the history then being
> made. Yes, we can look back now, after the
> revelations of the Venona files, the revelations of
> Whitaker Chambers, the Japanese nuclear program
> files recently uncovered, the collected papers of
> the leaders of that time, and make guesses as to
> alternatives, if that was known to those leaders in
> 1945. But it was not. And we cannot apply moral
> lessons of today, with this new knowledge, to that
> time and those actions. I wish that we could. But
> we can't.
>
> If so, we could alter history! We could eliminate
> the guillotine! We could instruct Rousseau as to his
> false assumptions concerning noble savages and the
> nature into which humans are born, we could counsel
> Roosevelt as to the activities of Harry Dexter White,
> and Alger Hiss, we could counsel Marx as to his false
> assumptions concerning economies being the
> foundations of human action, we could warn the West
> that Cronkite's, "We are mired in stalemate"
> broadcast in 1968 was false as it referenced the Tet
> Offensive, and the Vietnam War may well have ended
> within the next year, and so on.....
>
> The never ending pillorying of America is the remnant
> of the Chomskyist movement. The socio-political
> cultural damage is incalculable. He's been at it
> since the 50's. There's a great essay in the
> "Commentary" Oct. '04, issue about this phenomenon
> titled, "Chomsky's Universe". I do not make this up,
> I merely relay what others have discovered, I'm the
> messenger. What concerns me is that there is no one
> else. In the circle of art, it's kick Bush, and
> anything connected, that's about it. Oh, and kick
> the West. Oh, and have a good laugh. Go figure.
>
> And thanx for posting concerning these items as I
> find it difficult to post concerning art. I think
> about art but find it superficial at this time.


let me call you brother:

We Chicanos have always served our country. I was ideologically opposed to the Viet Nam War. Yet I stood with my uncle with half of his forehead blown away and his face scared by shrapnel and said the pledge of alliagence for him at every Fourth of July Parade. Where he other's who had served were honored; the brave and valient merit our concessions. When the invitation to register for the draft came; I went down and personally handed in my name. I am a Chicano. I am an American. I my disagree politically with administration but if called I will serve. We Chicanos are American Bob; we are not "half Norweigan and half Mexican". We are "whole".

One source on the internet claims that 1/3 of the new Marines are Chicano. The Marines serve first. They die first. I am a Longoria, Felix Longoria died in WWII. At end his wife was not allowed to bury his bones with "White People". His case became the one of the threads that created the Chicano Political Movement. When I ask Art Authorities when they will open thier doors to Chicanos they give me a list of Hispanic Names of hyphenated names. They will die for our country as we Chicanos chose to. I have no love superficial liberals. They only want the limelight and the opportunity to speak for us. I prefer the Conservative who holds me to my metal and accepts me for the strength of my convictions.

When you side with "intellectuals" right or left; I think you betray your inteligence. I admire you art work and enjoy jousting with you on ideas. I have little respect for those Minnesota Nice People who run and hide behind whispers and do not meet the challenge of thier hipocracy. I ask myself are they those that have felt the sting of truth? Have they known the taste of death? Have the felt rectchedness of losing your community to Gentrifacation? Or are they the "Sun Shine Patriots", full of words of American Arrogance and not of the "shrapnel of service". To this day at a almost feeble age of 50 I can still place four "Ace" shots in a deck of cards at 50 yards. Training gives one perspective on the art of "war". I know myself as the man with a gun who could have and would have killed in the service of his country. My heart with with the men and women over there.

But I cast my vote in memory and stead of my uncle; I will vote for one who has served. One who has felt the fire of schranel in his body. Truth is not a function of intelectual debate; it is the result of first hand knowlege.

You are missing the point of my noble house guest. She has more reason than the fanatics on either side of the Iraq conflict to wage incessant war. Yet she is here as an "...ambassador of my people and my City to learn your language, culture,..". I am not asking you to second guess history; I am pointing to you that history is being made in my home, one lovely person at a time. The bigotry that both sides of the war question would use to marshall us to war, ceaseless, pointless war, is a pathetic affront to the grace and decency of the Citizens of Nagasaki. You and others need to acknowlege that history is best made by those that do not forget but do forgive.

coyote infinity

Ray Rolfe

Posts: 3,263
From: Northeast Minneapolis
Registered: Sep 5, 2001
Re: Please vote HARRY BRAUN for President
Posted: Oct 1, 2005 7:32 PM
  Reply
Pop disc.jpg (10.6 K)

There has not been a new post here for almost exactly a year... yet today it appears in the popular discussions (see attached).
I find that very interesting. Does it just mean that a ton of folks are reading it still? All internet searches lead to mnartists.org, eventualy?

Bob Schulz

Posts: 416
From: Brooklyn Park, MN
Registered: Aug 15, 2003
Re: Please vote HARRY BRAUN for President
Posted: Oct 1, 2005 11:51 PM
  Reply

As I sat in the big tent

Ray Rolfe

Posts: 3,263
From: Northeast Minneapolis
Registered: Sep 5, 2001
Re: Please vote HARRY BRAUN for President
Posted: Jan 24, 2006 7:58 PM
  Reply

Big tent? Like Bob Fisher?

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