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Topic: Start Here
Replies: 39 Pages: 3 Last Post: Aug 22, 2005 11:06 PM by: jaime longoria

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Colin Rusch

Posts: 1,435
Registered: Oct 16, 2002

Start Here
Posted: Dec 14, 2003 11:14 PM

This summer a group of artists approached me about starting discussions on mnartists.org. They wanted to try developing a discussion in some depth before engaging the whole community in the dialogue. Their hope was to create a substantial interaction on significant issues for the community to consider. mnartists.org decided to give it a try as an experiment. We waited to release it until we launched the Featured Forums section. These are interesting and important questions. Have a look and dig in.

If anyone one else has ideas for starting or structuring discussions, please contact me at colin.rusch@walkerart.org.

Colin

Colin Rusch

Posts: 1,435
Registered: Oct 16, 2002

Re: Start Here
Posted: Feb 5, 2004 3:31 PM

Hi Everyone,

This forum has not quite caught on. I am thinking about archiving it, for now. Any objections?

Colin

jaime longoria

Posts: 1,161
Registered: Oct 7, 2002

Re: Start Here
Posted: Feb 5, 2004 4:08 PM

> Hi Everyone,
>
> This forum has not quite caught on. I am thinking
> about archiving it, for now. Any objections?
>
> Colin

Yes I object. You need to give people out there time to see the opportunity to have a "voice".

Please communicate to them and do direct them to me via my email; vivitaus@msn.com . I have much interesting things to say to these people off line about the value to thier careers of being a member of the "forum" community.

jaime

Colin Rusch

Posts: 1,435
Registered: Oct 16, 2002

Re: Start Here
Posted: Feb 5, 2004 5:14 PM

Jaime,

I am not quite following you here. Are you asking that we keep the featured forums up for longer periods of time? Or are you interested in contacting the four artists involved in starting this forum? I am happy to leave this up for a while longer if people want to engage with the questions.

Colin

jaime longoria

Posts: 1,161
Registered: Oct 7, 2002

Re: Start Here
Posted: Feb 6, 2004 9:28 AM

> Jaime,
>
> I am not quite following you here. Are you asking
> that we keep the featured forums up for longer
> periods of time? Or are you interested in contacting
> the four artists involved in starting this forum? I
> am happy to leave this up for a while longer if
> people want to engage with the questions.
>
> Colin

Colin; Generally I think it is foolish to create so many "invitational" forums and posts; but in this case there appears to be "real" people who solicted you. Please have them contact me directly; I will tell them the secret reason I spend any time on the "Forums". I will detail to them how the artist; Jimmy R. Longoria is profiting (real dollars and career advancement by being such an ass) I know that many are intimidated by the forums. Very few people in the "Art Scene" understand the scope of this venue for promoting thier work>coyote cuatro is a "brand" It keeps spreading to art market after art market as time goes on. Please note to them that by simply adding "Chicano Artist and Minnesota to my signature I am drawing hits to my posts and then to my Art site> net result is that I am being seen over my 3500 other minnesota artists.
It is basic Marketing 101.

When I propsed to you that I speak to your team about the use of this site; it was this idea that I wanted to communicate. I know that Art Scene gossip paints me as a nut; but I am constantly talked about; in a small art community it is cause for interest. As "critic" of the scene and the institution my voice is being sought! I per the nature of the conversations can not expose them but it is amazign that by being an ass; very decisive people seek me out!!??

The "Value" of this site grows with net. But one has understand how the net finds you. This does need to explained to interested parties in special form to suit thier individual purpose.

As Gabe hs noted there are stories of the Coyote giving away information that other artist "sell" and horde. It is my belief that I do so to actually build community. And the those who do not share thier knowledge create apathy.

coyote 256
chicano Artist
Minnesota Mediocre Art Movement

Colin Rusch

Posts: 1,435
Registered: Oct 16, 2002

Re: Start Here
Posted: Feb 6, 2004 1:43 PM

Jaime,

Thanks for these comments. I agree very much with you that real value is created in different ways online than it has in the past. Making yourself present, well known, and respected for your intelligence and work leads to relationships that lead to income. This site has also has helped many like minded artists find each other for the first time while documenting important discussions. I am glad you have been able to use mnartists.org as a platform to further your career.

Since you mention the volume of featured forums right now, I think it is worth explaining my methods. Most of the featured forums (all of them except one) have grown out of solicitations from me. I agree that there might be too many right now. I have been debating about cutting some out. But, I decided against it for the moment. There are a few reasons. Part of my charge working on this project is to figure out how this resource integrates with and can help transform the arts community offline. Hosting forums in conjunction with arts organizations and related to offline events is one way. As I'm sure you've noted, we gone about it in a few ways, initiating discussions from offline events, hosting realtime dialogues, staring discussions from posted materials like those from NYFA Source, and seeing what happens when a discussion is started amongst a few people. Developing this palette of experience with the forums is important ground work for mnartists.org's institutional knowledge and for taking advantage of future opportunities.

The second part of this is related to developing participation in the forums. There were lengthy discussions of why there was not more participation in the forums. Much of that blame was placed on me for not generating more activity. And I will accept some of it. I've spoken with dozens of people and a few barriers to participation came up repeatedly.

1. There were too many threads to sort through to find what you want, i.e. the organization of the forums was to difficult for people. They had to dig too much.
2. The value proposition of time invested versus the value of the experience was too low. People wanted more focused conversations and conversations on topics more relevant to their lives.
3. People were scared to post. The primary reasons for this were comfort level with technology and the vulnerability of participating in an open public discussion. The engaging conversations have been about ideas that are deeply important to people. We need to strike a balance of maintaining a high standard of discourse while making the barriers for participating low.

We have seen focussed increases in activity and new participants because of the featured forums. The opportunities they have given us to promote the site new audiences are essential to those increases. The logic behind all of the features right now is to generate a bunch of activity and let the discussion cross pollinate. We'll see what happens.

I will let the artists from this discussion know that you would like to speak with them.

Colin

jaime longoria

Posts: 1,161
Registered: Oct 7, 2002

Re: Start Here
Posted: Feb 6, 2004 2:40 PM

> Jaime,
>
> Thanks for these comments. I agree very much with you
> that real value is created in different ways online
> than it has in the past. Making yourself present,
> well known, and respected for your intelligence and
> work leads to relationships that lead to income.
> This site has also has helped many like minded
> artists find each other for the first time while
> documenting important discussions. I am glad you
> have been able to use mnartists.org as a platform to
> further your career.
>
> Since you mention the volume of featured forums right
> now, I think it is worth explaining my methods. Most
> of the featured forums (all of them except one) have
> grown out of solicitations from me. I agree that
> there might be too many right now. I have been
> debating about cutting some out. But, I decided
> against it for the moment. There are a few reasons.
> Part of my charge working on this project is to
> figure out how this resource integrates with and can
> help transform the arts community offline. Hosting
> forums in conjunction with arts organizations and
> related to offline events is one way.

I commend you on all of your efforts and I actively praise you for the job your doing( they chose the right person for the job)

What I would critize is the emphasis on "institutions". The general discomfort being felt in the artists community has a lot to due with the natural "decay" of the quality of organizations over time. The hard ball business world has come to the realization that periodic leadership change helps organizations remain vigorous. Change is not only nature it is needed.

As I'm sure
> you've noted, we gone about it in a few ways,
> initiating discussions from offline events, hosting
> realtime dialogues, staring discussions from posted
> materials like those from NYFA Source, and seeing
> what happens when a discussion is started amongst a
> few people.

I think you are getting that confirmed by people like Bob and Bruce; conflicting views are not a bod thing; infact it is what promotes the forums. The psuedo-Niceness of "congenial speak" is the real kiss of death to a vigorous discussion in any Art Community.

One can not force the formation of Community; it must be organic to individuals who step into the "plaza" "pit" "dialogue".

Developing this palette of experience
> with the forums is important ground work for
> mnartists.org's institutional knowledge and for
> taking advantage of future opportunities.

When I consult as a "Turn Around Manager" that is one of the first things that must be addressed; The "future" is now! Real opportunities are born of the existing reality and brought into being by feeding the current opportunies as they "morf" into the future.
>
> The second part of this is related to developing
> participation in the forums. There were lengthy
> discussions of why there was not more participation
> in the forums. Much of that blame was placed on me
> for not generating more activity.

I hope you stood up for yourself. You have done an excellent job to establish the "form" of a functional site. In surfing to study other sites I have found that a "heavy" hand led to the death of the site.
It is really an issue of the maturity of the Artists themselves that will expand participation. Those of us who have constituted the "forum" fracus have in varied degrees established Art supportive relations. What is unique about these relations that they have occured between people who would not otherwise come together.

We are not "bar" buddies, studio neighbors, school, work comradres; we are instead individuals that do not see eye to eye! This is something trully remarkable! The forum community is small and diverse but it has evolved over this medium. You and Walker have right to take pride in that. The relations between us will grow over time, it will not be a relationship of common personal bias but of diverse artistic respect! That is revolutionary! It is what will change the Art Scene!

And I will accept
> some of it. I've spoken with dozens of people and a
> few barriers to participation came up repeatedly.
>
> 1. There were too many threads to sort through to
> find what you want, i.e. the organization of the
> forums was to difficult for people. They had to dig
> too much.
> 2. The value proposition of time invested versus the
> value of the experience was too low. People wanted
> more focused conversations and conversations on
> topics more relevant to their lives.

Please load names and odd art specific terms into the Spell Check! Please! ( Longer )

> 3. People were scared to post. The primary reasons
> for this were comfort level with technology and the
> vulnerability of participating in an open public
> discussion. The engaging conversations have been
> about ideas that are deeply important to people.

I think it would be valuable for you to host face to face dialogues of the Forum participants with Artists who are timid about comming on to see that the voices on the forum are people just like them.

We
> need to strike a balance of maintaining a high
> standard of discourse while making the barriers for
> participating low.
>
> We have seen focussed increases in activity and new
> participants because of the featured forums. The
> opportunities they have given us to promote the site
> new audiences are essential to those increases. The
> logic behind all of the features right now is to
> generate a bunch of activity and let the discussion
> cross pollinate. We'll see what happens.
>
> I will let the artists from this discussion know that
> you would like to speak with them.
>
> Colin

thank you
jaime

Michael Fallon

Posts: 201
Registered: Jul 3, 2003

Re: Start Here
Posted: Feb 8, 2004 7:20 PM

edit

Gabriel Combs

Posts: 1,497
Registered: Jun 16, 2002

Re: Start Here
Posted: Feb 8, 2004 7:45 PM

Actually, re-reading my post, I see where you think I was saying I would be a thorn to you in particular. However, I meant the local art-world in general. I have gotten the impression of you being an egotist from your posts over time. Strangely enough, you are the only critic whose articles I read regularily. I would imagine that someone searched for you on the net, and coincidentally found another Fallon on a porn site. Maybe bad humor, but still just that, just humor. Was'nt it you who just said not to take ourselves so seriously? You know, really, I have had a number of exchanges on here with people that were uncomfortable. I have disagreed strongly with a lot of people. Maybe your right about the reasons more people don't come on here, maybe not. No one will probably really ever know. And frankly, what is calling someone a schizo? Just some name calling. There are people that disagree with each other whereever I have ever been. And yeah, I come on here sometimes for a communal feel I don't have in my life. I have involuntarily found myself in this played out "van gogh" model. I would rather live long, integrated into society like Hans Hoffman. (unless I am wrong about him) One of the only older artists I have found, that has befreinded me is one of your most dis-liked people. Naturally, that leaves a bad taste in my mouth. And hey, thanks for coming on here to "break us off".

Gabriel Combs

Posts: 1,497
Registered: Jun 16, 2002

Re: Start Here
Posted: Feb 8, 2004 7:52 PM

I'm too lazy to go back and look for it, but one of the things that made me think of you as an egotist was a statement you made to Jaime about him calling himself mediocre, and then about the "rest of us". This sounded as if you consider yourself higher, or above average.

And really, you do belittle, insult, and name call quite a bit yourself.

Charlie Alan Kraft

Posts: 2
Registered: Mar 5, 2003

Re: Start Here
Posted: Feb 8, 2004 8:42 PM

Wow, heard from the grape vine through an intricate web of disaster that this is the place to argue amongst other failing professionals of the art world about things that we can not figure out where we failed at. Seems kind of redundant in a way. How about your opinion? Are we getting any where on here hacking away at everyone while the progress of our literal pollution gentle strokes our ego? I'm very curious, or is my response to this pile of garbage just going to get someone sitting uncomfortable at home in their easel chair all fired up enough to search out my site on here read my profile look at my art and sketch out a plan of destruction that will hopefully inevitably lead to my artistic downfall. Or maybe someone across these phone lines will be inspired enough to actual form a sentence construct an imagery with distinct words and orgasm something all over this screen that doesn't look, smell and sound like dog shit. I don't hate anyone I'm not better then anyone, I never expect to be but I do know i can do alot better things with my time then sitting on a computer bibbling and babbling about the intricate design of art and the world around it. Let's see what could I be doing? Painting? Drawing? Sculpting? Writing? Taking photographs? Did I miss anything? I/m curious cause all this time the critiques spend critiqueing and artists spend whining and the whiners spend painting and the failures spend critiquing we could have all finished and awful amount of inspiring projects that might bring fulfillment to ourselves and our piers. I geuss who cares? This is obviously alot more fun then art. This is, like the Springer show of the internet... Yes forget creativity who can I miss quote make fun of and poke at next.... All my love hope to never read any of this crap again. You want to know about art? Are you interested in how it works or how society views it? Do you want to know which critique likes your stuff or which one doesn't? GO OUT AND DO SOME ART! Yeah and as far as the critiques go. Is someones opinion going to stop you from creating? If so just stop creating. Not everybody likes what I do but geuss what. I still do it and I am happy and I will never stop. God what a great life...

jaime longoria

Posts: 1,161
Registered: Oct 7, 2002

Re: Start Here
Posted: Feb 8, 2004 9:27 PM

Welcome, Char-Lee,
It is nice to have a fresh voice on the forum.

coyote cuatro
coyote 256
the last chicano artist in Minnesota
Minnesota Mediocre Art Movement

Michael Fallon

Posts: 201
Registered: Jul 3, 2003

Re: Start Here
Posted: Feb 8, 2004 10:16 PM

edit

Gabriel Combs

Posts: 1,497
Registered: Jun 16, 2002

Re: Start Here
Posted: Feb 8, 2004 10:57 PM

> My last posting was directed primarily to Colin, not
> to defensive posters.

Yes, Colin has an email.

> More information on professor Sunstein's ideas on the
> sociology of closed cultures like web forums can be
> found at:
> http://www.corante.com/many/archives/2004/01/10/cass_s
> nstein_on_the_echo_chamber.php . I would also add
> that the notion that the culture of this forum
> discourages open debate by its closed nature is
> something that has come to me gradually.

A "vereran" chat room goer broke down those dynamics for me last summer. I am aware of this too.

I've been in several conversations with local artists and have
> heard their discomfort with the site. It was only
> when I heard professor Sunstein speak recently that
> things began to click. I offer my thoughts only as a
> response to mnorg's agonizing in the hopes that it
> may resonate with a few of the more self-aware
> posters here. Maybe things will change for the
> better, and fewer people will be repelled, and the
> forums will grow. I've already been driven away, but
> it's not too late for others.

You've been driven away, yet you keep coming back.

> In the meantime, as for the question of my ego, well,
> I only humbly request that I be treated the same as
> anyone-- and judgment be reserved until I have been
> given fair opportunity to be judged. And I also ask,
> why is the question even being raised in an internet
> forum? The tendency to personalize the debate, and
> make personal attacks/assessments, is part of how
> people become alienated from the forums.

But, although you are "gone", you do the same thing as you talk about it. Like I said, I got the impression from a few posts. I have also seen you insult and name call and then edit. What more do you know of me? I probably know more about you as you are a writer. And yeah, I can admit I am a defensive person. But I do understand alienation. I will take this oppurtunity to apologize to the general public I have been "alienating". This has not been my intention. I in fact probably come on here for fewer career interests than most. I came on here originally for community. Freindship. I have sought this in everyday life and not found much, so I came here. Yes, I know that part of the motive of this project is to forward the success of artists. I never intend to seek out a full time career as an artist. Part time job, part time artist maybe. I do art. I just do. Money and "success" has nothing to do with it.

Gabriel Combs

Posts: 1,497
Registered: Jun 16, 2002

Re: Start Here
Posted: Feb 8, 2004 11:22 PM

I wish I did'nt get caught up in these damned things. Its frustrating.

Here is a plea to all of you who don't come on here because of this or that reason. Come on at least once and say why you don't.

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