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Topic: Good Night and Good Luck: What does it mean to be an American now?
Replies: 139   Pages: 10   Last Post: Mar 3, 2006 8:22 AM by: Jimmy longoria

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Ray Rolfe

Posts: 3,263
From: Northeast Minneapolis
Registered: Sep 5, 2001
Re: Good Night and Good Luck: What does it mean to be an American now?
Posted: Nov 29, 2005 11:16 PM
  Reply

Allright, you got me. I'll go see it next time it's free.

I think the time is right. Conditions are prepaired for me to enter the playing field and observe. All the bugs and lizards are probebly dead.

Bob Schulz

Posts: 416
From: Brooklyn Park, MN
Registered: Aug 15, 2003
Re: Good Night and Good Luck: What does it mean to be an American now?
Posted: Nov 30, 2005 12:43 PM
  Reply

Excellent

Jimmy longoria

Posts: 112
From: Minnesota
Registered: Oct 6, 2005
Re: Good Night and Good Luck: What does it mean to be an American now?
Posted: Dec 3, 2005 7:23 AM
  Reply

> wasn't an insult, bob...quick little caddyshack quote
> to your bit about being (you, I, Jaime, etc) the
> peons or whatever...once again bob, lighten up a bit-
> saw it as a compliment. I'm not your enemy.

Don't whimp out Shawn!!

Let me be Bob's enemy!!

Don't lighten up Bob. Your shrill siren of the beliguered Right Wing Nuts is enjoyed by my personal Left Wing Liberal Bar Buddies! We very much enjoy the hoots and hollers from you.

And we awed at the "silence" of the Liberal Educated and effeminated Left Wing Artists wanta bees.

Tilt away my fair "Don Q" I will be your Sancho.

Jaime

Bob Schulz

Posts: 416
From: Brooklyn Park, MN
Registered: Aug 15, 2003
Re: Good Night and Good Luck: What does it mean to be an American now?
Posted: Dec 3, 2005 11:13 AM
  Reply

Hey

Gabriel Combs

Posts: 1,497
Registered: Jun 16, 2002
Re: Good Night and Good Luck: What does it mean to be an American now?
Posted: Dec 3, 2005 1:05 PM
  Reply

Any way of telling what kind of jobs? I've wondered that. They say job growth, but what kind of jobs? Wage slave jobs?

Jimmy longoria

Posts: 112
From: Minnesota
Registered: Oct 6, 2005
Re: Good Night and Good Luck: What does it mean to be an American now?
Posted: Dec 3, 2005 1:49 PM
  Reply
benito looking north bjmural.jpg (87.3 K)

> Hey, Coyote, you should be reading more and drinking
> less coffee. The reality of the revised third
> quarter employment and economic report numbers were
> published yesterday, and your gloom over the status
> of our economy was shattered.

I do not know how you make a living; but I once worked in retail. I learned to read quarters with an eye at both ends of the year.

It may look good in the short term but it is the year end average that tells you if you made any "profit".

My concern is at the way in which "Art Funders" are looking at thier share of the "market". You can "spin" numbers all you want but it comes down to the "devidends" that get paid out to the foundations that will alter the "Art Communities economic health". Yesterdays numbers mean very little to how foundations make funding decisions.

Look at the "housing market" to get a good guage on the "wealth" of our society; the house sales activity is going soft. No matter how many jobs you thout, the wealth of the middle is deminished by a softened "economy".

And let me point out to you that two governors have started to make international overtures to foreign economic regimes without corrodination with your "Global War Monger".

Remeber that our economy is strapped to a "Global War". And that it is financed in "future" debts!!!
>
> No one knew for sure what the numbers would indicate
> and there was fear that they would be lower than
> anticipated. However, surprise, they are as follows:
> all economic growth over the last quarter in the US
> soared to 4.3 percent (four times the growth in
> France and Germany, two countries saddled with
> debilitating socialist centrally planned economies
> from which they are trying to extricate themselves).
> In the same period 215,000 net new jobs were created
> bringing the total net new jobs created in the US
> over the last five year period of 1,800,000. The
> numbers in Europe are so low as to not be measurable.
>
>
> So much for gloom and doom. These numbers are as
> good or better than any during the previous much
> vaunted Clinton period of growth. What is
> particularly stunning is that Bush has accomplished
> this in the face of horrible circumstances. The
> crash of the markets at the end of Clinton's two
> terms, the collapse of our economy in the face of
> 2,800 9/11 murders at the World Trade Center in '01,
> the staggering recent shortages of oil, the
> unprecedented rise in the cost of crude oil, and
> constant attacks from SFBs Leftists in an attempt to
> collapse Western economies for the purpose of taking
> control of, what else, central planning of a
> socialist collapse of Western controlled markets.

Northwest is not buying new planes from California; Europe is expanding its airline manufacture goals; Ford and GM are planning cut backs in "capacity", Japan Motors is courting China with "hybrid" ideas.

The Xbox is buildt in China.

The internet picked up another couple of points of sales volume(if there are no physical stores, one can ship direct from the factory, "manufacturers can become their own e-stores)

Markets don't care anymore about "ideology" it has become a commodity world; nations and thier populations are no longer relevent.


>
> Other than that, I'm shocked that you could find
> anyone, much less a group bar flies, to commiserate
> with over these facts.
>
> Now, please make a comment or two on the "Oracles"
> exhibit as I'm sure we are in some agreement on that
> topic. Or, ruminate a bit over the god-awful films
> recommended by the WAC's education department.
>
> Not to further inflame those most uninformed, but,
> there is nothing in the retorts aimed at my posts of
> any truthful significance, and I will remain faithful
> to my performance of bringing to artists in this
> venue what they previously would never have been
> exposed to, or, are presently able to comprehend.

Shawn, myself and my wife toured the exhibit. We chatted and pretty much put the show to bed. Tragically it seems that the Walkie has turned itself into a repository of dated ideas that perhaps have not yet gained the reality of "truth". It was a good exhibit to see; a sort of "closer" for the last twenty years of artistic self indulgence.

I have no interst in making "cocktail conversation" with you on the "content" of the work there. My question is "is it Art"?

What do you think Bob?

coyote infinity

Bob Schulz

Posts: 416
From: Brooklyn Park, MN
Registered: Aug 15, 2003
Re: Good Night and Good Luck: What does it mean to be an American now?
Posted: Dec 3, 2005 2:15 PM
  Reply

Well

Bob Schulz

Posts: 416
From: Brooklyn Park, MN
Registered: Aug 15, 2003
Re: Good Night and Good Luck: What does it mean to be an American now?
Posted: Dec 3, 2005 2:36 PM
  Reply

Well,

Bob Schulz

Posts: 416
From: Brooklyn Park, MN
Registered: Aug 15, 2003
Re: Good Night and Good Luck: What does it mean to be an American now?
Posted: Dec 4, 2005 10:11 PM
  Reply

Concerning

Ray Rolfe

Posts: 3,263
From: Northeast Minneapolis
Registered: Sep 5, 2001
Re: Good Night and Good Luck: What does it mean to be an American now?
Posted: Dec 6, 2005 12:50 AM
  Reply

Well I've read more of your reactions, Bob, then I've read of the words on the white walls. So I'm not as up on the historical context. But I will have to say something of his talents as a "Dream Object" creator. That is, if HE really did create the objects, rather then have a crew as you suggest.
You know, the way that Tiger is jumping up on the Elephant is an incredibly skilled taxidermy. But the logic of such objects as the cement extruded wicker chair thing is weird. Yeah, I think it is scale. Pings scale of time, and possibilities. I felt he wasn't to concerned with any nationalistic politics. Maybe the spy plane was intended to be extremely political, but it seemed to defy any world logic. It's a total dream object. Almost unbelievable that it still exists, considering its past configurations. What was that bit about it being installed once without Pings consent or knowledge?
Of the whole show, I would suggest studying the scroll map / legend thing (Just beyond Elephant) before AND after seeing the objects. If you experience the exhibition as a walk in Pings dream, the drawing will enrich the experience.
It is weak as water if you consider waters role in the universe.
Is Ping Alive or Dead??
Is he a time traveler? When archeologists dig in the basement in 7 years, they might be pleased to find the wheel calendar device.

But I don't know.
I can't really say anything.
I was only there for a blink.
It was like nourishment for dreams.
Content creation device.
Unsolvable puzzles to perpetuate sleep.

Bob Schulz

Posts: 416
From: Brooklyn Park, MN
Registered: Aug 15, 2003
Re: Good Night and Good Luck: What does it mean to be an American now?
Posted: Dec 6, 2005 11:55 AM
  Reply

Great

Ann Klefstad

Posts: 95
Registered: Nov 29, 2002
Re: Good Night and Good Luck: What does it mean to be an American now?
Posted: Dec 6, 2005 7:09 PM
  Reply

A take on the Yong Ping show. Please note, it won't be reviewed on mnartists.org because it's not work by a Minnesota artist. But it's great to discuss it here.

I'm interested in the show for a lot of reasons. I've been for many years associated with the mode of work that's called Fluxus--people interested in bringing art into life, sometimes as tricksters, sometimes as hucksters, and sometimes just as makers. The Yong Ping work has a close relationship to this stuff, as it's work done not to be beautiful. or to be read like a book, but work that messes around with the relation between the lifeworld, the world of culture (both aesthetic and political), and humanness.

Politics looks different from inside China than from outside China, especially right now. Some themes in Chinese film--the use of minority culture as a theme, the depiction of ancient kingdoms, the depiction of animals and wild places--are clearly understood as political metaphors in today's China--we would not tend to see them that way. Chinese people are fully conscious of how terrible the Mao years were--I was in China in 1979, just after the Gang of Four arrests, and I can tell you that no Chinese person needed an artist to tell him or her about the tragedy of those years. So that tends not to be a theme of Chinese art--how much art in latter half of the 19th century was about the Civil War and its horrors? Not much--people wanted to forget about it. They didn't need to be told. But there is a new nationalism in China today--they want to find ways to love their country without shame. There are ways in which Yong Ping is relevant to this development.

So Bob, get off your damned righteous pony. You might learn something.

There's some really interesting parallels between the work of Joseph Beuys and that of Yong Ping.

Beuys' work, like Yong Ping's, reached almost casually through the scrim of artworld concerns, ripping them to shreds, and seized upon the potential of artifice--of making, of making stuff up--in the interest of other kinds of power. Both men faced the need to revive a culture that had been fouled by history: Beuys' Germany by fascism and Yong Ping's China by colonialism and then Maoist ideology. They found that they had both the ability and the mandate to create a new ground for making.

For both men, the authentic ground on which to stand, to make anything true, had been obscured by years of lies and evil. They both have been doing work, almost private work, that is meant to return them, as makers, to some kind of good faith with the cultural and natural means which are their birthright. By doing this work, they leave traces behind, which are the things in the gallery. These things are not quite what you'd call "sculptures" or "paintings" ordinarily. They are the carapaces of actions, or the signs that a struggle has taken place.

They do these things to restore a right relation to their own cultural means. Both men did uncover the ground they needed, I think, to stand on.

The ground they found themselves on was the kind that's made out of dirt. They both searched earlier technologies of understanding the human relation to the larger lifeworld, technologies that grew out of the soil on which they grew up. Beuys explored shamanism and the paganism that predated the Christian "colonialism", and Yong Ping explored traditional means of divination and geomancy, which also predated the "colonialism" of Western science and Western art. Both men used animals in their work, sometimes as almost cartoonish icons of ideas (like Ping's elephant and tiger) and sometimes as stand-ins for the human animal, the being that possesses and is possessed by both body and mind, the being that lives and dies. They also used dead animals instrumentally, testing the ways in which people instrumentalize other living beings--even other living human beings.

Both men are also often funny, very free in their thoughts, and willing to pursue both serious hunches about the importance of this or that theme or material and their own amusement. They are full men, people who act out of their own affection for the world around them, out of curiosity about it, and out of a knowledge of pain and estrangement from it.

I'm happy to see that Beuys had a sort of brother on the other side of the world; I don't fully understand what Yong Ping is doing, because I'm not Chinese, and his work is very involved with Chinese history and culture, but I understand it through the good that I know Beuys did for Northern European culture. I think that this is good work, bent on a rich search.

I think it's a little ironic that it's found in an art museum, but then where else could it be, where else could it live? Beuys had the same dilemma, but it's the dilemma that all artists everywhere have to wrestle with. It's expensive to do art--expensive in time and materials and means. Artists have only their bodies. They need to find patrons of some sort, whether clients or institutions or galleries or merchants or buyers, to enable those bodies to create what they want or need to create. So artists everywhere, always, make deals with all kinds of devils--pretty kind and benign ones, who really only do harm through their very size, imperviousness, and resistance to real change, like the Walker; or real devils, like the Sforza family, for whom Petrarch, the father of Western humanism, wrote PR. (The Sforzas were arms merchants, tyrants, and incredibly inventive torturers and murderers. Petrarch knew what they did--everyone did--but when he was asked why he took their money and did their bidding, he said, because it was the only way he could fund his own work.)

So Yong Ping's work that casually rips through Western art history in a simple gesture of the arm is in a big palace of Western culture, ironically, because at the moment that is what allows him to continue his work. The Bat Plane piece is a sort of document of documents on how that kind of bureaucracy affects the processes of working in Ping's manner--the thing turned into a monument of Forms and Paperwork, to peruse which would take days. No one will do it. But there it stands. It's pretty funny, and absolutely an authentic Document. It does work in its own way as well.

Well. There's an article in the Rake as well about this show, written by Julie Caniglia, still the best art critic in town. Enjoy.

AK

jaime longoria

Posts: 1,161
Registered: Oct 7, 2002
Re: Good Night and Good Luck: What does it mean to be an American now?
Posted: Dec 6, 2005 9:07 PM
  Reply

> Well, Coyote, I think that world economies are in a
> state of transition to a place humankind has never
> before experienced. Everything seems to be new, a
> different model from the past.

This is a very common excuse to not evaluate the actions of those in power. Each day is new( ask our sun watching friend).

We can build only on
> what has apparently worked before. So markets are
> where a rational human builds upon. Corporations
> will rise and collapse as products are demanded or
> shunned.

That's why they are called free markets!!!

This to me is not cause enough for alarm.
> I fully expect the big three auto manufacturers,
> having sat on their laurels, are about to implode.

Don't bet on it- check your wallet working guy; chances are your "plastic" money is owned by one of those "car" companies.


> Whatever! Good for them for not beating out better
> r manufacturers in this market.
>
> I wish China would play fair, but that's a another
> thread.

In a "free market world" what is "fair"?

Right wing nuts are getting what they thought they wanted and it ain't exactly nice to you.

One that a certain Chinese artist has a
> moral responsibility to address. But, since he lives
> in Paris, I have to cut him some slack. One misstep
> for him means back to the salt mines.

Do you really think he is "Chinese"? The work assembled in Walkie is more "American" than Chinese.

I found the show a classic "bomb" of the work done in the later part of the last century. Post Academic Clever Post Modern Neato Post Post global vision "Installation" ,....

>
> Thanks for the comments on the show, I'm going to
> walk through one more time, look again, see if I
> missed something. No one at the WAC will post
> anything or respond to anything said here, which is
> telling. It gives you an idea the extent to which
> they view not only ourselves, but the entire project
> of this web site.

Where is Reggie? Where do the Walkies hide? Why hide? Tragic when the "employees" have no faith in in thier "company" then you know that the MIllions spent on a "black box" were well spent. I do mean "well' spent!

I'm sure our opinions wouldn't
> raise a giggle at a cocktail party. We being so
> hopelessly out of touch with that other reality. The
> gas of high altitude.

Bob: I explained to our friend Sam that I "cheat" the process; when I post really juicy stuff here I also send out a "batch" of email to those who have expressed an interest in what "Coyote" writes. So when you and I get it on reallllll good then notice the numbers!!!

Remember by day I wear a suit and move about the "Professional" world and of course they "read" the Coyote. And we do talk about what you and I "yell about"!!!

It was the same as with Fall On. But more fun with you!!!!

Will I see you at the MAEP openning this thursday?

Coyote Infinity
Chicano Artist de Minnesota


Message was edited by: jaime longoria at Dec 6, 2005 9:07 PM

Bob Schulz

Posts: 416
From: Brooklyn Park, MN
Registered: Aug 15, 2003
Re: Good Night and Good Luck: What does it mean to be an American now?
Posted: Dec 6, 2005 11:59 PM
  Reply



jaime longoria

Posts: 1,161
Registered: Oct 7, 2002
Re: Good Night and Good Luck: What does it mean to be an American now?
Posted: Dec 7, 2005 11:04 AM
  Reply

> I never said you weren't a neat dresser. I, on the
> other hand, look somewhat a bum, and not without good
> cause. I can clean up, however, when necessary.
>
> I guess it's enough to write back and forth between
> the four of five of us. If I were involved in such
> and exhibit, at such a level, in such an important
> museum, I guess I too would talk to only those having
> an immediate effect on my resume. God, even merely
> bumping into someone of a lower caste, if seen by an
> associate, may contaminate one's presence if not
> hygiene.
>
> Can you imagine trying to talk with someone really
> smart? It most likely would be a more pleasurable
> experience to place one's head in a vice, and
> compress. How do they gesture? How would they
> laugh? Or, how would they, for instance, pick up a
> shovel? Which hand would they use to open a door?
> All these visions of how my life could have been so
> different seem, suddenly, to flood into my mind!
>
> I caught my pinky projecting, unexplainable this
> evening, as I sat watching Cut, Chop, Rebuild,
> sipping my tea. I'm trying to fit in, but I suspect
> at my age it's hopeless.
>
> Can you imagine when Yong Ping got the idea for the
> steel cage bars installation at the airport.
> Bing-bong, why do I have to stand aside? This must
> be unfair!! I know, I'll analyze my negative hubris
> for this social injustice, and build a facsimile for
> my oeuvre! And then the visit from the curator
> follows! "Wots this?!? A cage?" "No this is how I
> was unfairly detained at an airport because of my
> race!" And the rest is history.


Bob; Annie has offer you the "article"!!! Please write about the parralel between the "Grand Salon" and the "new salon". It was a fascinating lecture for me in Art School many years ago; the work was pretentious and derivitive much in the same manner as all of the work Anne values.

Please take her up on the challenge!!!!!!

You ever loving advorsary

Coyote Infinity!!!!!

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